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In TF2, does 50 = 50 ? details inside
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HerrDocktor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: No icon In TF2, does 50 = 50 ? details inside Reply with quote

The history:

When i first started playing TF2, i chose medic cuz i didn't know the layout/objectives of the maps very well. And i figured i ought to stick/follow someone who does...hence medic.

After 50 hours or so of medic-ing i got decent at it, and i started to top the score chart on a regular basis. But on several occasions my patients would be reckless, ineffective (for example: soldier vs soldier, you'r being healed, the other soldier is not and he has no health packs around, but it's you the one that dies). I had the urge to take the killing task into my own hands.

I began to search for a class to deliver the killing.
First stop: Heavy
lots o' health, continuous stream of pain shooting from the gun....fun. But the slowness of the heavy+being head-shotted on a regular basis meant average effectiveness.

Second Stop: Spy:
1 hit kills, sentry immunity(-ish)...what's not to like. But...the backstab hit registration™ being horrible (helooo string of 3 failed backstabs on a moving heavy) made me abandon it save special cases of _no_spy_on_team_and_must_sap_sentry.

Third Stop: Pyro
Aaaa, pyro, the annoying defense class i liked on TFC.
Continuous stream of pain...paired with ambush techniques learned while playing spy = awesome defense force. In the beginning (way before the pyro update) i was a little disappointed at the flamethrower firepower. I would sneak onto 2-3 enemys, burn their backs then get insta-gibbed...while they get healed up...sigh...flames not powerful enough.
Then the update hit...and the backburner™ came along. Aaaa, backburner, the tool of the ambush pyro. Now my weakness is long range and certain classes on close range (btw: damn U _certain_ soldiers Razz, you know who you are). So far one of my favorite classes, waaay up there along with medic at over 100 hours.

All the above process of searching has led me to this question: does effectiveness (measured on score) as a medic help the team more than effectiveness as a pyro ?

Does a score of 50 as medic = score of 50 as pyro ?

Substitute pyro with the class of your choice.

What be your opinion?
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zeDocteur
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

The Medic, if played by someone with above average skill at the class, is without a doubt the most important class to have in a team, even Valve admit having a skilled Medic in the team helps the whole team score more, cap more and survive longer.

Then again I have 140 hours on the Medic, I'm totally biased Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Id agree. A team with no medic vs a well balanced team with a couple are going to struggle unless they play amazingly well.
As a medic you can mitigate against ineffective healing/uber by chatting to your 'patient'

Noface is really good at this and lets you know if youre getting an uber or arent getting one, and also spots for potential targets. That helps. I mean he does spout allsorts but you have to filter that out Wink

And of course, sometimes youre gonna get bumped or airblasted or uberblocked and thats life.

In terms of the 50 : 50 thing. Because of the class mixes each time and skill variances - there are no guarantees.

Id just say that voice comms and working as a unit with the 'patients' around you realllllllly helps.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

I wouldn't look at the score all that much. When you are a Medic you will top the scoreboard most of the time but that's how the class is designed, to get points from anything. Healing, deployed ubers, assists, defenses and captures, they all boost Medic's score.

Pyro on the other hand is a different sort. You can harass Snipers with the flare gun, airblast ubers and incoming rocket/nade spam, your very presence means that enemies can't really advance until they take you out, Spies must be very careful and must try and avoid you, you can easily help an Engineer by both keeping the Spies and spam away and when ubered even if you don't get a lot of kills you will always push the enemy back a lot. All those things help the whole team but Pyro gets only a handful of points and sometimes not even that.
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Salith
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Well something's got to encourage people to play medic more than just "helping the team" (can be a rarity at times). But yes, a team with at least 2 decent(ish) medics is going to do much more that without Smile
And zeDocteur, you beat me by about 5 hours as Medic =D
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HerrDocktor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

GeneralTGF wrote:
I wouldn't look at the score all that much.


I mentioned the score because i think Valve made it a "return on effort" or a effectiveness value. I can only assume they balanced it for all the classes and made it to take into account as much as possible.

fraggdya wrote:
A team with no medic vs a well balanced team with a couple are going to struggle unless they play amazingly well.


I'm not saying the team is going to be medic-less. I'm considering being eighter a second/ third medic or a pyro.
It's just that on several occasions i'm left alive at the front lines to wait for patients to respawn. Now i can't really go and charge into the enemy lines as a medic (i tried Razz), but as a pyro or as another class i do have a little more firepower.

The dilemma is the same: one less medic or one less offensive class ?

GeneralTGF wrote:
When you are a Medic you will top the scoreboard most of the time but that's how the class is designed, to get points from anything. Healing, deployed ubers, assists, defenses and captures, they all boost Medic's score.
.


So, it's easier to get points as medic compared to another class ?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Yeah. Consider startup. no points for anyone - except medic has an uber good to go and hits the points straight away.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Ahh points points point! Who cares about points?! It's about playing as a team and bloody winning! Very Happy

I used to play CS regularly and it's so scorebased it got boring. I then was convinced to try TF2 and one of the biggest things I like about it (aside from the actual team play and people who play) is that I dont play for points, I play for fun and enjoy it whether I'm bottom of the list or top.

What would you rather do: Win the match, knowing you actually helped but be mid on the list, or come top, pwn everyone, didnt really bother helping much and lose?

My two pence.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

I choose "I don't care, just heal my rocket/sticky jumps while in setup", even though a medic score of 50 is better than a pyro score of 50. Nothing annoys me more than when I'm trying to get to the middle cap on Granary before the other team does, and no medic heals me.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Pyros are useless apart from spy checking, airblasting ubers and being ubered on defence at the start. Otherwise, overplayed class.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Wrath wrote:
Ahh points points point! Who cares about points?! It's about playing as a team and bloody winning! Very Happy

WIN!!!
Urm, I mean this, not the actual winning part, although it is nice, a fun game is better regardless of winning or loosing Smile

But yes, a good medic will get more points than anyone else, because that means they are switching back and forth, healing those who need it, and getting points when they make a kill while being healed.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Remember the very first thing about TF2 - it is not about points, it is about coordinated teamplay.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

smudge wrote:
Pyros are useless apart from spy checking, airblasting ubers and being ubered on defence at the start. Otherwise, overplayed class.


yes.. ill remind you that when im taunting your scorched body Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
though i'd say its much easier to score as medic.. pyro though.. well.. cant say im totally biased Very Happy (and tbh i dont care about score really.. whoever seen me death charging knows that already Very Happy Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

Medic is an easier class to score well with, by charging an uber and keeping everybody's health boosted in setup, you'll have at least 3-4 points right from the start so long as you don't die before you uber (which I've done a few times Embarassed ) . After that, if you can keep alive and near people healing them you'll pick up points easily. So in some sense, since it can be harder for pyros to keep up with a medics score, if they both score equally the pyro might have played better than the medic, but the medic will probably have helped the whole team more.

On the flipside, a pyro might work his way behind enemy lines and find himself behind a group of 5 or 6 enemies. 1 backburner and 3 fun-filled seconds later you've got a high scoring pyro and the remains of a barbecue gone very wrong... or very right Twisted Evil

It's a difficult one but in reality I'd say the score is not always a good overall measure of how good a player is or how valuable they are to the team, for example, a pyro hanging around a few sentries doing spy checks and air blasting rockets, grenades, stickies and ubers might only score a few points but is of very high value to the teams def.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:45 pm Post subject: No icon  Reply with quote

It's a toughie this one...

On the one hand medics do get their points from the off, but if, like many medics, they stay with the same client everytime, they will end up with much less points in the end. using the example of Pyro, may have not been the best example, but if you take engineers or snipers, it brings up many more "points"

An offensive engineer can get to the top of the team in no-time at all now, just by teleporter points. Some don't even have a kill, or a sentry. Some don't even get to see the glorious field of battle.
With the snipers, I can see the skill in headshotting a scout, but headshotting someone with a massive head and who moves slower than a legless cat, requires very little skill, so should they get 2 points for their headshots? Should it depend on which class he kills?

I may have just talked a whole pile of poppycock and codswhallop, so critisise my spelling and ideas all you want, I am Bulletprrof Twisted Evil
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