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Lets talk about the short circuit
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:36 pm Post subject: No icon Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

This was a long time coming, and I'm sure many are going to be against it, but can we have an actual discussion on banning the short circuit?
I understand the desire to keep the fun servers vanilla and that some enjoy the weapon, but it comes up enough in mumble (mostly from me and klar) that I want to see what the actual community's opinion on it is.

I dont believe its a weapon that is a net plus in fun/enjoyment in the game, and its outright broken on some pl maps. It negates projectile classes too well in thinner maps and makes the game even more visually cluttered for everyone. Its just too disruptive to the game basically.

I tried to make this a poll but I think that functions broken.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:54 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Caveat : there's no chance of us unilaterally banning a weapon as it's a slippery slope and just opens the door to constant "I don't like x and want it banned" chat.

That said, as a chance to vent:

Very very unbalanced weapon.  Huge blobs or energy balls or what ever they're called that wipe out every projectile in it's vicinity. Spammed, on blue, whilst stood by the cart, ad infinitum, negates most chokes.

To make it balanced the blobs need to be much smaller to require some form of aim and increased refill times.

But alas, we can't ban it, so we just need to agree anyone who uses it on THG servers has hooves for hands, sits upon a fiery thrown, think the ending of Game of Thrones was good and that pineapple on pizza is tasty.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

I agree.

This is especially bad when two engineers decide to work together, one fixing the sentry, the other yeeting every projectile in existence. Couple that with pyros airblasting and ubers, and it's basically impossible to do anything about it
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:53 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Haytch wrote (View Post):
Caveat : there's no chance of us unilaterally banning a weapon as it's a slippery slope and just opens the door to constant "I don't like x and want it banned" chat.


Vaccinator, Phlog, DR, Battalion's Backup, ...
Anything else?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

None of those force other players to change their playstyle drastically or change class. Theres more obvious counterplay and they dont have nearly as big an effect on the match. I dont see why it has to be a slippery slope, just a high bar to pass before it gets blacklisted. The aim should be to make playing in the sever more fun, right?

If the short circuit doesnt meet that bar and enough people do genuinely find it fun to play with and against then fine, but I dont buy the argument that we shouldnt ban anything because people might want other weapons banned.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:31 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Haytch wrote (View Post):
But alas, we can't ban it, so we just need to agree anyone who uses it on THG servers has hooves for hands, sits upon a fiery thrown, think the ending of Game of Thrones was good and that pineapple on pizza is tasty.

I was with you up until the last bit. Now excuse me while I go eat my hawaiian pizza with my hooves.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

[quote="olshi";p="52323"]
Haytch wrote (View Post):

Vaccinator, Phlog, DR, Battalion's Backup, ...

In first moment I thought you want to ban our dr_ro ... :P


Rayman wrote (View Post):
None of those force other players to change their playstyle drastically or change class. Theres more obvious counterplay and they dont have nearly as big an effect on the match. I dont see why it has to be a slippery slope, just a high bar to pass before it gets blacklisted. The aim should be to make playing in the sever more fun, right?

Enough people complain about too many kritz-charges for demos who spam their stickies while being charged. Such spam forces other players to play in other way.
There are medics who know how to use vaccinator and other people complain about it because critz-charges arent so efficient as they should be. Vaccinato forces other players to play in other way ... The aim should be to make playing in the sever more fun, right?

Every weapon is dangerous if player, who uses it, is advanced.
We have advanced engineers on THG, so you must think how to deal with them in other way than brute-force
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:56 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

It really isn't that big of a deal.
I find it pretty hilarious that one would even make such a suggestion in a heavily payload-dominated server, where in a lot of maps not using it transforms the entire game into "Blu waits for a uber while you can't even think about going through the choke since there are 300 projectiles flying through it at all times."

It has clear counters, and even projectile classes can deal with it if they use their noggin. Shoot stickies in an upward motions/arc so they don't get hit by the ball, and if the engineer starts firing upwards for them, whip out your grenade launcher and lob some pipes directly at his face as he is now no longer shooting at you. Soldier's have shotguns and can position themselves at uncomfortable angles for the SC engineer. I do it all the time on the server when I play demo and it works just fine. There are rare cases where you can't do this due to the area having a very low ceiling and the angle being simply perfect for the Engineer (think upward second point, being on RED and the payload going up, SC will block everything.) but these are, as mentioned, pretty rare and you have 13 other players on your team to simply shoot a bullet into his face.

The weapon really isn't unbalanced, annoying at best. And in an environment that has 28 players and crits enabled, you can't exactly talk about "balance" with an earnest face. This posts reeks of "I can't deal with this, please ban it.".

+ the Short Circuit M1 make a funny loud noise
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:46 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

As someone that has and does play Engie a bit. I can totally understand the frustration.

On PL maps where you can keeping getting metal off the cart you can endlessly spam the SC to cancel projectiles, but like most class weapons it can be easily overcome.

Engie is squishy so if you get up in his grill, he's gonna fall pretty easy, especially without him hiding behind his gun (trust me i know).

I find the hitboxes for the huntsman BS, but i wouldn't want it banned, that's the beauty of tf2, there always ways around stuff and do suit peoples playstyles.

Also, nothing wrong with Hawaiian pizza, in fact its the best ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:22 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

zapo wrote (View Post):

Enough people complain about too many kritz-charges for demos who spam their stickies while being charged. Such spam forces other players to play in other way.
There are medics who know how to use vaccinator and other people complain about it because critz-charges arent so efficient as they should be. Vaccinato forces other players to play in other way ... The aim should be to make playing in the sever more fun, right?

Do people seriously complain about kritz? Its been around as long as the payload gamemode. kritz and uber pushes through chokes is how the game and pl maps are designed. They're more predictable, require build up and are pretty much the core of the medic class. The fact you lose out on an uber with the vaccinator is huge and its much easier to play around than the short circuit on thin corridory maps.

zapo wrote (View Post):

Every weapon is dangerous if player, who uses it, is advanced.
We have advanced engineers on THG, so you must think how to deal with them in other way than brute-force

Every weapon doesnt have the same impact on the game.

bigtimerush wrote (View Post):

It really isn't that big of a deal.
I find it pretty hilarious that one would even make such a suggestion in a heavily payload-dominated server, where in a lot of maps not using it transforms the entire game into "Blu waits for a uber while you can't even think about going through the choke since there are 300 projectiles flying through it at all times."

The maps are designed around uber and supporting uber pushes. And around spam to some extent. Beyond that the cart is moving cover that heals you and pyros already can clear some of the spam.

bigtimerush wrote (View Post):

It has clear counters, and even projectile classes can deal with it if they use their noggin. Shoot stickies in an upward motions/arc so they don't get hit by the ball, and if the engineer starts firing upwards for them, whip out your grenade launcher and lob some pipes directly at his face as he is now no longer shooting at you. Soldier's have shotguns and can position themselves at uncomfortable angles for the SC engineer. I do it all the time on the server when I play demo and it works just fine. There are rare cases where you can't do this due to the area having a very low ceiling and the angle being simply perfect for the Engineer (think upward second point, being on RED and the payload going up, SC will block everything.) but these are, as mentioned, pretty rare and you have 13 other players on your team to simply shoot a bullet into his face.

I dont like when people talk about balance in some isolated way where its 1v1 in an open area, you just have to look at the actual impact it has on the game on some maps. They have the same amount of players shooting you and preventing you doing what you want to, except the defending team now cant engage properly, or much at all in tight corridors. Its just too infulential, too spamable, and leads to rolls with too much health on the cart.


bigtimerush wrote (View Post):

The weapon really isn't unbalanced, annoying at best. And in an environment that has 28 players and crits enabled, you can't exactly talk about "balance" with an earnest face. This posts reeks of "I can't deal with this, please ban it.".

+ the Short Circuit M1 make a funny loud noise

Of course you can talk about balance, and you can definetly talk about enjoyment. Why do you think we have class limits? Theyre not vannila? They certainly make the server more balanced and enjoyable.
And the majority of my hours in the server are as sniper and I still hate it, please dont be condesending.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:22 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Honestly I think its fine, unless we are talking about it being spammed on the cart which can be annoying sometimes. I would be fine with valve changing the weapon so you couldn't get metal from the cart while its active or something like that.

But overall I agree with bigtimerush that its not a huge deal, and I wouldn't want it banned.


Haytch wrote (View Post):
Caveat : there's no chance of us unilaterally banning a weapon as it's a slippery slope and just opens the door to constant "I don't like x and want it banned" chat.


I have to say that I do find it odd that people are wanting to remove weapons, but are okay with class limits.

I have heard the same arguments as to why we have to limit classes "too many pyros are not fun lets limit them"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:23 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Rayman wrote (View Post):

The maps are designed around uber and supporting uber pushes. And around spam to some extent. Beyond that the cart is moving cover that heals you and pyros already can clear some of the spam.


I don't exactly see how "Maps are designed around uber pushes" changes the fact that we are playing on a 28 player server - something maps aren't designed around, especially size-wise. In normal TF2 you can usually look and pass through a choke without instantly dying - in the environment the server is in, this is not the case. The Short Circuit is the logical answer to this problem.

Rayman wrote (View Post):

I dont like when people talk about balance in some isolated way where its 1v1 in an open area, you just have to look at the actual impact it has on the game on some maps. They have the same amount of players shooting you and preventing you doing what you want to, except the defending team now cant engage properly, or much at all in tight corridors. Its just too infulential, too spamable, and leads to rolls with too much health on the cart.


Yeah, it isn't isolated. That's the thing, you have other classes which shoot bullets that can deal with the SC engineer. It's a team game after all. I am both at the receiving and giving end of the Short Circuit, sometimes playing it on Attack and sometimes playing Demo on defense when others do it - the strategy I mentioned works because I experienced it working over and over. And if we do end up in some strange narrow 24 HU x 24 HU tunnel, if the map is worth a damn, you can probably flank the place and attack the cart from a different angle. You can replace "The Short Circuit is too powerful in a narrow super choke" with "The Stickybomb Launcher is too powerful in a narrow super choke" and it would be the exact same debate.
Besides, what determines if something is "too influential" ? There are about 25 other weapons which I'd deem "too influential, too powerful" in this server's environment compared to the usual vanilla. When will we start talking about those and potentially banning them?


Rayman wrote (View Post):

Of course you can talk about balance, and you can definetly talk about enjoyment. Why do you think we have class limits? Theyre not vannila? They certainly make the server more balanced and enjoyable.
And the majority of my hours in the server are as sniper and I still hate it, please dont be condesending.


Quite frankly, I don't know why there are class limits. This is a very casual orientated server, so I don't know why they are there in the first place. I'd argue it's debatable if they make the game more enjoyable in this specific environment.

I'm sorry for being condescending, I just find it really strange to complain about balancing when this server is a giant clown fiesta where people are playing melee-only heavy and bottom scoring as the funny gun spy. If this was a vanilla 24p no crit no spread competitively orientated pub, I'd be down to talk about it but it simply isn't. There are much, much larger balancing problems at hand than the Short Circuit but they simply aren't handled due to the server and it's administration clearly being - as I have already mentioned - very casual orientated. Which isn't a problem, but that is how it is. The Short Circuit doesn't flip games in someone's favor by an engineer using it. It's OK and understandable to be annoyed by it, but calling for a ban is just silly.

If we start banning the Short Circuit then it's time to run the big campaign to banning the entire Sniper class as well, as it's too influential, too powerful, and non-interactive and unfun to play against.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:36 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

bigtimerush wrote (View Post):

I don't exactly see how "Maps are designed around uber pushes" changes the fact that we are playing on a 28 player server - something maps aren't designed around, especially size-wise. In normal TF2 you can usually look and pass through a choke without instantly dying - in the environment the server is in, this is not the case. The Short Circuit is the logical answer to this problem.

There isnt a problem, sides are still pretty balanced and blu still wins more often than not.

Quote:

Yeah, it isn't isolated. That's the thing, you have other classes which shoot bullets that can deal with the SC engineer. It's a team game after all. I am both at the receiving and giving end of the Short Circuit, sometimes playing it on Attack and sometimes playing Demo on defense when others do it - the strategy I mentioned works because I experienced it working over and over. And if we do end up in some strange narrow 24 HU x 24 HU tunnel, if the map is worth a damn, you can probably flank the place and attack the cart from a different angle. You can replace "The Short Circuit is too powerful in a narrow super choke" with "The Stickybomb Launcher is too powerful in a narrow super choke" and it would be the exact same debate.
Besides, what determines if something is "too influential" ? There are about 25 other weapons which I'd deem "too influential, too powerful" in this server's environment compared to the usual vanilla. When will we start talking about those and potentially banning them?

Im not talking about some mythical map, most tf2 maps are quite narrow, especially pl maps. More open ones still have long chokes or narrow corners designed to be sticking points. Spamming the short circuit on a map like metropolis absolutely is too influential, we're likely just going to disagree here. Of course theres ways to kill the engie, saying somethings overpowered isnt saying it makes you invicible. The amount of damage youre negating on the cart is out of wack with equivalently costing actions in the game.

Quote:

Quite frankly, I don't know why there are class limits. This is a very casual orientated server, so I don't know why they are there in the first place. I'd argue it's debatable if they make the game more enjoyable in this specific environment.

I'm sorry for being condescending, I just find it really strange to complain about balancing when this server is a giant clown fiesta where people are playing melee-only heavy and bottom scoring as the funny gun spy. If this was a vanilla 24p no crit no spread competitively orientated pub, I'd be down to talk about it but it simply isn't. There are much, much larger balancing problems at hand than the Short Circuit but they simply aren't handled due to the server and it's administration clearly being - as I have already mentioned - very casual orientated. Which isn't a problem, but that is how it is. The Short Circuit doesn't flip games in someone's favor by an engineer using it. It's OK and understandable to be annoyed by it, but calling for a ban is just silly.

If we start banning the Short Circuit then it's time to run the big campaign to banning the entire Sniper class as well, as it's too influential, too powerful, and non-interactive and unfun to play against.

Theyre in place because the game is more fun if theres a balance to the teams. The server would be a worse experience if there werent class limits, even if its a largely casual server. People complain about the melee guys and memey players once the servers running too.
I actually agree with you that the sniper class non-interactive and unfun to play against if youre not just... another sniper, but im not going to advocate redesigning the core game, classes and maps to compensate. Just blacklisting one unlock.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:23 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Rayman wrote (View Post):

There isnt a problem, sides are still pretty balanced and blu still wins more often than not.


The winrate doesn't matter. In an earlier thread of mine I had elaborated on the problems created that actually affect gameplay. The "Short Circuit" doesn't cause issues either if all that matters is winrate of teams. A BLU Team with an SC Engineer doesn't flip the winrate of the stats by 25%.

Rayman wrote (View Post):

Im not talking about some mythical map, most tf2 maps are quite narrow, especially pl maps. More open ones still have long chokes or narrow corners designed to be sticking points. Spamming the short circuit on a map like metropolis absolutely is too influential, we're likely just going to disagree here. Of course theres ways to kill the engie, saying somethings overpowered isnt saying it makes you invicible. The amount of damage youre negating on the cart is out of wack with equivalently costing actions in the game.


Then I'd unfortunately have to disagree. There are very very few scenarios where the track is so incredibly narrow/so much a tunnel that you cannot apply the anti Short Circuit tactics I had mentioned before. On Metro you can do exactly the thing I had mentioned, and I will be entirely honest with you, Metro is just kinda a horrible map. You should be playing better maps instead of playing an enlongated corridor. If it wasn't for the SC a single demo can shut down the entire progress simply because of how much of a choke it is - the Stickybomb Launcher is about as influential as the Short Circuit in that situation, but we wouldn't ever ban that. And I'd also disagree on the idea that the Short Circuit is somehow doing something incredibly magical that other weapons can't do - there are plenty of other tools that heavily impact the game in ways the Short Circuit does - lots were even mentioned in the thread before.

Rayman wrote (View Post):

Theyre in place because the game is more fun if theres a balance to the teams. The server would be a worse experience if there werent class limits, even if its a largely casual server. People complain about the melee guys and memey players once the servers running too.
I actually agree with you that the sniper class non-interactive and unfun to play against if youre not just... another sniper, but im not going to advocate redesigning the core game, classes and maps to compensate. Just blacklisting one unlock.


I have never seen someone complain about melee and memey players. I am personally really annoyed at them, but that's just because I am a more competitively orientated player in a casual server. That's why I never speak out against them. Might just be anecdotal, though.
And well, I am challenging your assumption that it would be a worse experience if it wasn't for class limits. The majority of the server is casual. For them it would be way better if they could just play the class they want to and if they could organize shit like "haha lets all go pyro guys!!". Even I am personally annoyed when I can't get to play a class I want to play because the 2 bottom scoring scrubs are taking it up.

It really just comes down to your base argument being kinda flimsy from my perspective. The Short Circuit does not impact the game as much as you describe it does - and if that level of impact is enough to warrant a ban, then we need to ban other unlocks too, as they cause similar consequences. Demomen don't have to suddenly become demoknights, they can simply apply the techniques I had mentioned before and keep playing their class as usual. I wouldn't be talking about this if I hadn't tried it for myself. It simply isn't as much of a deal as you are making it out to be, which is why it doesn't need a ban.

Once again, I can write you a giant essay on how the Wrangler is much more influential to the game than the Short Circuit, or the Rescue Ranger. Or the Gunslinger. But even their impact isn't suddenly making the game less enjoyable on a large scale.

You are downplaying how big of a deal "Just banning one unlock" is. Banning the Kritzkrieg would be a really big deal and that's also just "banning a single unlock". Unlocks are part of the core game - accept and roll with them. We aren't playing Competitive Highlander here.

Which btw, does not have the Short Circuit blacklisted Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:12 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

bigtimerush wrote (View Post):

You should be playing better maps instead of playing an enlongated corridor.


People don't seem to like 5cp here cause it seems to end in a 30min stalemate or a total roll more often.
If you have any recommendation for new maps, feel free to mention them/send them davs way.

bigtimerush wrote (View Post):

I have never seen someone complain about melee and memey players. I am personally really annoyed at them, but that's just because I am a more competitively orientated player in a casual server. That's why I never speak out against them. Might just be anecdotal, though.


People usually complain about the melee/meme players when they are all stacked on one team which most of the time makes the game unfun for their teammates cause you usually get nowhere with 3/4 demoknights on your team.

bigtimerush wrote (View Post):

And well, I am challenging your assumption that it would be a worse experience if it wasn't for class limits. The majority of the server is casual. For them it would be way better if they could just play the class they want to and if they could organize shit like "haha lets all go pyro guys!!". Even I am personally annoyed when I can't get to play a class I want to play because the 2 bottom scoring scrubs are taking it up.

The same thing kinda applies here when you've 4+ snipers/spies/engies/pyros stacked on your team, gl getting anywhere/rolled  that's one of the reasons we have classlimits.

The only really annoying thing for me personally is the visual of the short circuit lightning ball, the "reflects" can be done by any half decent pyro.
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