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Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion)
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Huwajux
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:31 pm Post subject: No icon Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

A vote for random crits has now been added through the use of a plugin on the THG server. At the time of writing melee crits are still enabled and it is supposedly on a 1 week trial period starting from yesterday (this is just a rough time frame, so give or take).

Random crits have always been a heated and controversial topic throughout the THG community, and now it seems that somewhat of a compromise has been achieved. Crits have been the bane of many peoples' TF2 existence and have drawn much ire from a sizable portion of the playerbase due to their random nature. This random factor has understandably generated a lot of frustration among those who enjoy THG for its heavy emphasis on teamwork and co-operation, feeling that random crits undermine that aspect. In contrast, there are those who believe that crits are an enjoyable game mechanic, and that they allow for the spontaneous creation of hilarious and memorable moments. These two outlooks unsurprisingly clash with each other at a very fundamental level, and as a result have created friction here and there with regards to enabling or disabling the setting.

As a solution to this dispute, power has now been given to the playerbase in the form of a critvote. Whether you enjoy them, or froth at the mouth at the mere mention of "random crits", players are now able to cast their vote in what they want to see happen. If people are playing on the server and the majority want to see random crits enabled, then it will happen and it will be as if nothing has changed! If, however, the majority of people playing don't want random crits conflicting with their style of gameplay, then they won't be! This addition of the critvote has allowed for a democratic solution to what has been a long-term (and somewhat tired) issue of contention.

As a side note, those of you who enjoy getting up close and personal with the enemy and bashing their brains in with your melee weapon (be they pans, hams or hammers) needn't worry in this style of play being neutered, since random crits will continue to function on melee weapons regardless of the outcome of the critvote. My own speculation on the reasoning behind this is due to the fact that melee fights are either a last resort, or quite easily avoided in almost every circumstance.

Since no thread has been made outside of the admin section I thought I'd try and get a discussion going about how people feel towards this newly implemented critvote system. What are the arguments for or against it?

Personally I view this decision as an objectively good thing, as it helps to appeal to the majority playing at the time. Random crits being a consistent thing on melee also helps to alleviate any concerns towards the more niche and silly styles of play. With the vote in place the option itself has become far more flexible, and instead of one side being completely neglected, there is always the possibility of it going either way. I can't really think of any reason why a voting system like this would ever be considered a bad thing, but that's partially why I made this thread, in order to see what peoples' opinions are and the arguments behind them!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:14 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

If this post completely derails your topic of arguing on the vote instead of the crits then please remove/ignore it.

On the crit issue, not the voting:

Random crits are a a kind of equalizer on the battle field. It can give newbies a chance when playing against wintered veterans. By removing crits you remove a part of the fun that they would have. It makes it even harder for them to win or at least get some feeling of contribution to the team.
One consequence of this is that it will attract more high skilled players and raises the bar for new players that might consider coming to THG, which I think is crucial in keeping the community alive.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:34 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

Dkz wrote (View Post):
If this post completely derails your topic of arguing on the vote instead of the crits then please remove/ignore it.

I don't mind there being some discussion about crits themselves since the two issues are obviously intertwined, but I do feel that the focus should indeed be primarily on the vote.

Dkz wrote (View Post):
Random crits are a a kind of equalizer on the battle field. It can give newbies a chance when playing against wintered veterans. By removing crits you remove a part of the fun that they would have. It makes it even harder for them to win or at least get some feeling of contribution to the team.
One consequence of this is that it will attract more high skilled players and raises the bar for new players that might consider coming to THG, which I think is crucial in keeping the community alive.

The chance for a random crit is scaled up with damage, and its original design was to augment the 'highs' a skilled player feels when they're on a roll. While it no doubt helps a noob score a kill here and there to make them feel good about themselves, it is just as likely to screw over the poor new player by having him needlessly die to a far more experienced player's crit and becoming demotivated (if not more likely due to damage scaling). It's quite a weak argument too when a large majority of the playerbase are typically regulars who are already quite experienced with the game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:36 am Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

I am not sure that random crits have always been a sore point, perhaps only in the last couple of years.

For me crits should remain enabled. It works both ways, sometimes you're lucky, sometimes not. Embrace the randomness rather than getting frustrated about it.

What's next, friendly fire on, only maps with _pro on the end? Other games cater to those who are looking for that experience.

Disabling crits marks a change in what THG has been about for the last 7/8 yrs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:46 am Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

SandZ wrote (View Post):
What's next, friendly fire on, only maps with _pro on the end? Other games cater to those who are looking for that experience.

I don't know of any competitive setting where FF is enabled. And the _pro suffix is just a name. Call is pl_pier_fun, I don't care as long as it has fireworks.

Tbh, this critsvote leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because I know how many THG regs like crits and were against this change last year. This was unexpected, to say the least. I like to play without crits but, more importantly, I prefer a full server.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

yes this has been the bane of THG since 2009 search and we are still here we sort of know what will happen as it has so many times before.

Some of them in the search for crits will show you really how it has all panned out in the past.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

SandZ wrote (View Post):
For me crits should remain enabled. It works both ways, sometimes you're lucky, sometimes not. Embrace the randomness rather than getting frustrated about it.


This is extremely dismissive towards those who don't like random crits. Imagine if I were to say "Luck shouldn't be a part of this game, embrace the fairness that comes from crits being disabled instead of getting frustrated about it". A 'put up, or shut up' approach to this isn't the right way to go about it from either side of the argument.


SandZ wrote (View Post):
What's next, friendly fire on, only maps with _pro on the end? Other games cater to those who are looking for that experience.


This is a textbook slippery slope fallacy. Why on earth would friendly fire ever be enabled in THG? With crits there are clear-cut reasons for either liking or disliking them, but with friendly fire on what possible benefit could be gained from that? Pro maps are also maps that have been rebalanced so as to help provide a fairer experience and negate some of the more unfun aspects of certain maps (e.g. long extensive sniper sightlines, intense chokepoints with no flanks, spawns that are set much too far away from the next point). The reason they're labelled as "pro" is because they're utilised mostly in a competitive setting due to their rebalanced nature, but they also help alleviate issues that are just as prevalent in pub play.


olshi wrote (View Post):
Tbh, this critsvote leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because I know how many THG regs like crits and were against this change last year. This was unexpected, to say the least. I like to play without crits but, more importantly, I prefer a full server.


Of course there are people that like crits. This isn't a complete disabling of them though, but rather a democratic vote that has been implemented. If there truly are that many people who enjoy crits, then the vote will sway that way. If not, then they'll be disabled. I've yet to see why this is a bad thing and the wildly doom and gloom outlook of the server dying is quite hysterical. A sizable portion of the playerbase dislike crits (fairly intensely might I add), and yet they are still around.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:14 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

Democracy?
You do have to consider who is on the server these days.
Currently I think there is a permanent majority for non-crits meaning the democratic vote is no longer, in my eyes, democratic since it will always end up being non-crits.
I'm merely saying this as I have yet to see the vote swing to pro-crits. Statistics would be nice here.

Does this mean we should always have non-crits permanently?  Not really otherwise you risk disengaging/fragmenting the pro-crits but then vice versa so maybe a vote is a good idea...
But then switching between non-crits/ crits would be annoying to deal with.
So THG is effectively stuck been a rock and a hard place.

#2?
The funny thing about this whole crit/non-crit argument was that #2 was set up for non-crits yet nobody really went to it since it was easier to join into a full server, in this case #1. Its disappointing to see that a forcing function was used in order to satisfy those who wanted non-crits. (Forcing function a way of deliberately making the user do something, for example microwaves automatically cuts off when its door is open to prevent user from being zapped as some users may forget to turn off the power before opening the door)

With regards to Huw's comment about "A sizable portion of the playerbase dislike crits (fairly intensely might I add), and yet they are still around"
We can semi-flip this and ask ourselves, if a sizable portion of the playerbase dislike crits (fairly intensely might I add), why didn't they go to #2?
If a sizable portion of the playerbase dislikes crits, they should be able to keep #2 up and running. After all you need to have a sizable portion of the playerbase to kick start the server.

Regarding "and yet they are still around", perhaps because #1 was the go to server? We can find out by deliberately redirecting #1 users to #2 without letting the user know. Something similar to Google A/B testing.  

Doom and gloom?
Though what I think relates to this issue is the fact that #1 is slowly becoming a higher skilled server. As the skill ceiling starts getting higher, it attracts people of those levels. So the demand for a serious yet fair game grows stronger. Some might say that's a good thing and it might even be the natural progression of a server, the other option is dying of course.
But one thing to bear in mind is that the higher we go in terms of skill level, the less players there are to attract to the server. As high skilled players are merely a sub-set of the overall population within tf2. So there could be an argument that in the long term THG might not be able to sustain a server.

A hard counter to this arguement could be "But THG doesn't cater for the lower skilled, it sits somewhere between valve pubs and competitive lobbies"
True but we are shifting towards the competitive side of the skill level. Every time we shift closer to the competitive skill level, the sub set gets smaller.
As a double wammy, the further we go competitive the higher the chance of dissuading those of lower skill level to join us.
So in terms of maintaining a high server population, it may be difficult in the long term.  

My opinion
I'm not a big fan of how this was implemented. Nothing about this idea was discussed to those who play on the server, it just randomly appeared. Communication here would have been ideal giving the rather heated status of a crit/no-crit vote situation. It be nice to see admins who implemented this feature to explain their reasons and justification for this.

Either way, I don't really care about if its non-crit or crit. I only care about the health of this community and right now it's not in the best of shapes. That's for sure.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

I like crits, I like freedom of choice and I see no problem in a critvote (especially when melee doesn't lose the blessing of crits). But the issue feels bigger than it actually is.

For 6v6 or 9v9 I understand - one player has more value due to smaller teams, losing this one to RNG can instantly change the whole match in a rather unfair way.

But for a 14v14 or even 12v12 random crits rarely seem to change the outcome of a match, maybe only when a medic with a charge gets killed by one and it slows down a push. So I believe this frustration towards random crits has more to do with the personal reaction of an individual rather than crits being something gamechanging.

It's hard to say why exactly I do like random crits myself though, pretty sure if they weren't in from the start I wouldn't complain about them not being there. But due to the light and fun atmosphere THG has, these crits have brought in some hilarious moments, even if I have been on the recieving end. Sure, I've ragequitted a few times as well because of them but at the end of the day I've realized that the day wasn't too promising to begin with. Those unfortunate crits only have fuelled the rage, never created it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:31 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

Can we not give everyone crits the entire time. That way everyone will have crits and no one has random crits!
Problem solved!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:14 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

I have to say im pretty disappointed this has been implemented i think crits were fine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

On a side note, i'm the one responsible for it being implemented without warning, it was meant to be a trial in response of people complaining about crits. That was a big mistake on my part.

So whatever happens in the future, i'll be the one to blame and i will take my responsabilities.

Cheers.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

I_am_terrible wrote (View Post):
I have to say im pretty disappointed this has been implemented i think crits were fine.


Then you can vote for them. This isn't a complete disabling of random crits, but rather an opportunity to appeal to those playing at the time.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:28 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

Well the server is just becoming what HH used to be which i grew tired with and THG was a nice change. I will probably just stop playing to be honest because i don't see random crits being voted on. It will just end the same way with the people playing now just keeping it off at all times. Disappointing for me but i have other games to play instead.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:52 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Votecrit has been implemented! (discussion) Reply with quote

Kaibz wrote (View Post):
On a side note, i'm the one responsible for it being implemented without warning, it was meant to be a trial in response of people complaining about crits. That was a big mistake on my part.

So whatever happens in the future, i'll be the one to blame and i will take my responsabilities.

Cheers.


While it's honest of you to say it was your fault, it was not my intention on playing the blame game. So I have a feeling I may have incorrectly phrased the following statement in my earlier post

"It be nice to see admins who implemented this feature to explain their reasons and justification for this."

In my context as a software developer, the aim is not to play the blame game. The aim is to find the issue, explain the thought process that led to this issue and see what went wrong and what could have been improved on for future.

In this case
The issue: have a crit or no crit vote
Thought process: ??? <- this is missing on my end which leads into the lack of communication
what went wrong: lack of communication to the members
How to improve: open up some form of thread discussion with members before implementing a server-wide changing mechanic.
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