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Lets talk about the short circuit
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Rayman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:20 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Unfortunately metros pretty popular on the server. A lot of "bad" maps are. A lot of good maps still have lots of narrow sections and tight corners. Again, doesnt matter if you can kill the engie, they're doing too much for too little and helping create too many rolls with too much health on the cart. Progress is supposed to stop at chokes, youre supposed to be taking a tonne of damage on the cart.

Aeryn calls out memey players all the time (especially demoknights). Its a casual server but people still expect teamwork and a balanced game. Come to the mumble if you want to hear people complaining aha.

Does highlander not ban it? On the Wiki it shows it as the only engineer weapon banned in all formats.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:45 am Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Rayman wrote (View Post):

Do people seriously complain about kritz?


Yes, they do. On mumble, on chat - maybe not so often like on short circuits but they do.
Especially when enemy team charges kritz one after another



Rayman wrote (View Post):

Every weapon doesnt have the same impact on the game.

Simple case: One team has 3 medics with ubers, other team has no medics.
Team with medics wins of course because medics had charges.
Should medigun be banned ? It obvious it made unbalanced game and made roll.
Its not fault of medigun or short circuit that people don't want to use them.
If there were medics with mediguns on both sides, the game would be more balanced.
If there were engies with short circuits on both sides, the game would be more balanced.


Rayman wrote (View Post):

Aeryn calls out memey players all the time (especially demoknights). Its a casual server but people still expect teamwork and a balanced game. Come to the mumble if you want to hear people complaining aha.

Does highlander not ban it? On the Wiki it shows it as the only engineer weapon banned in all formats.



https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Template:Weapon_Ban_List
According to wiki, yes highlander's banned short circuit. There are other banned weapons too.
But THG is not a highlander with strict rules. And you cannot neither ban short circuit on THG nor stigmatize players who use it.

Situation with short circuit on THG is like Brexit. Everyone on the world complains about Brexit but Brexit is fact (I don't judge if its good Brexit takes place or not). Same short circuit - its the fact. You have to deal with it but the problem of majority of people on THG is ... they don't know how to win against engie with short circuit in other way than simple brute-force attack (like just using a rocket or 2 and kill engie). Sorry, it requires bit more thinking.

So instead of infinite complaining about short circuit just try to find out disadvantages of this weapon. By disadvantages I mean soft spots of engie (as a class, no t as a concrete player) who uses short circuit
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:18 am Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

BigT_ wrote (View Post):

People don't seem to like 5cp here cause it seems to end in a 30min stalemate or a total roll more often.
If you have any recommendation for new maps, feel free to mention them/send them davs way.


That statement wasn't meant in the "oh man sure wish I could play 5cp" way. Most of the time, the maps played are fine. There are a couple of individuals which keep nominating pretty bad maps, or joke maps that get rtv'd off 10 minutes later if they come to play, wasting nomination slots for actually good maps, but speaking out against that falls back on the entire "This is a casual server bro Smile Let's play cooler_badwater for 7 minutes until people get to the mic and we rtv it off Smile".

BigT_ wrote (View Post):

The same thing kinda applies here when you've 4+ snipers/spies/engies/pyros stacked on your team, gl getting anywhere/rolled  that's one of the reasons we have classlimits.


That's a completely fair take. Ultimately class limits cause problems either way. The way I see it however is that the person that would've picked the 5th sniper slot likely wouldn't be any good at the game anyways, so if they pick spy instead they will still offer no value to the team. The thing I mentioned mostly applies to one-class mains that would like to play their one class, but can't because Jimmy.gonzalez235 and his little brother
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are currently playing Huntsman sniper with 3 points each 20 minutes into the round.

Rayman wrote (View Post):
Unfortunately metros pretty popular on the server. A lot of "bad" maps are. A lot of good maps still have lots of narrow sections and tight corners. Again, doesnt matter if you can kill the engie, they're doing too much for too little and helping create too many rolls with too much health on the cart. Progress is supposed to stop at chokes, youre supposed to be taking a tonne of damage on the cart.

Aeryn calls out memey players all the time (especially demoknights). Its a casual server but people still expect teamwork and a balanced game. Come to the mumble if you want to hear people complaining aha.

Does highlander not ban it? On the Wiki it shows it as the only engineer weapon banned in all formats.


I'd disagree again. Metro is a shit map, but usually maps played are completely fine from my experience. I mostly play early in the server's lifespan, so the natural playershift that occurs might foggy my view and for all I know THG exclusively plays crusty maps starting 8PM. But that once again is a problem with maps, not the SC.

Tight corners and narrow sections don't make the engineer immune. You can still apply the strategies mentioned. You saying "they are doing too much for too little" is an empty statement that can be applied to just about anything. Get a pyro to reflect the balls, get a sniper to shoot the engineer. It really isn't a big deal. I could recreate this thread 1:1 and replace Short Circuit with Vaccinator or Razorback and the vague argument of "It offers too much of an advantage Sad" would hold about as much ground. I have never seen a roll take place exclusively because of the Short Circuit. I won't deny that it helps, but so do a ton of other weapons. In a roll situation, the Short Circuit is the cherry on top of the cake, not the cause of the issue in the first place (That goes to team imbalance, usually.)

And yeah: Progress still stops at chokes, and you still take a ton of damage at the cart. I don't want to repeat the same things over and over, you get the gist. The things you mentioned still take place when a Short Circuit Engineer is around. The Short Circuit isn't an impenetrable shield, and if it is to you or your charming pal Klar, then they need to start using their noggin' and start outplaying the engineer with the strategies mentioned, which is something clearly a lot of players have already started doing. Ragequitting in response to losing a duel to an engineer using the SC usually isn't the sign of someone that is interested in actually learning how to play against it, not that that ever happened.

If you want to talk about something that stops players from taking a ton of damage on the cart, put your eyes on the Bat. Backup... which is a tool that only scales in it's insane effect due to the higher playercount the server offers. But no one is talking about banning that, despite it's effect being much larger than the SC. "Doing too much for too little", in your words. Same arguments you named hold up just fine against it aswell.

Demoknights shouldn't be put in the same set as "haha funny sticky jumper melee only". Demoknight, when played properly, is a proper class, executing Demoknight in a 28 player primary payload server is a feast in it's own though.

And ultimately if people still expect teamwork and a balanced game we should work on larger issues than weapon bans first. I am getting conflicting signals when you talk about people playing the game competitively, expecting balance and teamwork, when the game is 28 players, randomcrits, full on weapon spread, and when I take a look at the people I actually see playing in-game. Or when people seemingly want to waste their time hopping from server to server "for fun". (?)

And regarding the Highlander statement, I was referencing it's most recent season. They unbanned a lot of weapons they didn't find to be destructive to gameplay - which included the Short Circuit.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:44 am Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

If you think we play the same maps and they are sh*t than vote different ones in.

This is way I always vote Egypt and Fastlane (bestlane) in, not coz there amazing maps, but its a nice turn of pace from the norm.


As I said earlier TF2 gives us some many options with classes and weapons, side grades, different ways to play a class etc there's always a counter.

The example someone gave about medics being an advantage hit the nail on the head. E.g if Blu has 3 med and Red has 0 the advantage is with BLU. This is why I often mostly main medic on the server nowadays, while demos and sollie top the boards, medic is what win matches.

Classic football analogy "Attack wins you games, defence wins you titles" if you will.

Back to the SC, While it is annoying, it can be easily countered and by the looks of this (so far anyways) it's here to stay on THG.

Lets all chill and vote Fastlane in :D

Cheers
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

zapo wrote (View Post):

Enough people complain about too many kritz-charges for demos who spam their stickies while being charged. Such spam forces other players to play in other way.


Oi checky git, they're aimed not spammed.  The only stickies that are not aimed are the ones for ayern, she's magnetically drawn to them like the millennium falcon drawn to the death star.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:47 am Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Haytch wrote (View Post):

Oi checky git, they're aimed not spammed.  The only stickies that are not aimed are the ones for ayern, she's magnetically drawn to them like the millennium falcon drawn to the death star.




!!!!!!!!

thanks H...... unfortunately tis sad but true..... Embarassed  Embarassed
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:55 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Rayman wrote (View Post):
None of those force other players to change their playstyle drastically or change class. Theres more obvious counterplay and they dont have nearly as big an effect on the match.

Challenge accepted.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Coming back to the topic at hand: as someone who mains the class that is most affected by the short circuit, I am completely fine with it. There are tactics around them to sentry-bust, these tactics are just harder to execute and require more coordination. One example is to go up to the sentry and shoot your pipes from point blank range while ubered. Or you could push with a heavy instead.

Also the short circuit is a great way to quickly get some sort of balance back if your own team decides to go all-in on support classes and the opposing team decides to use a lot of explosive classes. Having one engineer that can negate the firepower of 1/3 of the enemy team in that scenario can slow them down and give the team time to regroup instead of getting rolled.

Finally, if you have 2 demos and 2 soldiers (which is not uncommon) shoot at the engineer at the same time some projectiles will almost always come through because people do not shoot exactly in sync. I have seen engineers fail miserably with short circuit with lack of teamwork. Short circuit is poweful when used properly in combination with pybros and good team work. Perhaps the solution is more teamwork.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:25 pm Post subject: No icon Re: Lets talk about the short circuit Reply with quote

Personally I don't think short-circuit should be restricted as it doesn't negatively impact the game enough to warrant it.

It can be countered as already mentioned in this thread. Yes it can be frustrating with an engi sitting on the cart spamming it, but that's not really any different to pyro in that respect. In fact, you could argue that pyro is worse because the projectiles aren't just deleted, they come back as mini-crits.

Rayman you're right in that taken in isolation, we shouldn't resist banning short-circuit because it may cause others to request further weapon restrictions. However, H is also right in that it really does create a precedent.
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